PhotoDude.com

This is a serious problem that is not being addressed because of political correctness. When the Muslim community is silent on the behavior of extremism it allows everyone else to assume that those actions are in some way condoned. This makes all Muslims fair game for retaliation. If better thinkers don’t step in on both sides it will get worse and more global. Look at the Ivory Coast.

PD,

I’ve kept reading your postings with great interest, particularly because it helps me understand the rationale of the political right in the US. I haven’t posted any comments because the thread of replies is sometimes enlightening, and my intervention would only ruin them. However, I feel compelled to comment when it comes to “the US vs. the world” kind of issues. I hope you take my comments in the best possible light.

(...) “nor do I mean to come across as a “EuroBasher” speaking in sweeping generalizations”.

Yet your first lines are a sweeping generalization that make you come across as one.

Not only that: you take the patronizing position that possibly “some” Europeans will now understand how it feels to be a victim of terrorism. Nevermind that almost every nation in the world (including European nations) has experienced terrorism for decades. If most of the public opinion around the world is opposed to the intervention of the US in the Middle East it is not due to lack of experience with terrorism, but BECAUSE of that experience.

Racism, on the other hand, is an international malady, and I don’t see any justification for believing that racist responses increase proportionally to the magnitude of the attack.

And as for the first comment, if it has any merit, then we might ask why is it that most citizens of the US remain silent or even support the “behavior of extremism” of the US government abroad (and I’m not talking just about Iraq)? Does it make all US citizens fair game for retaliation? I think not. Because I don’t think that you can throw everyone in your predefined categories (e.g., “the Muslim community”) and expect them to behave as you see fit.

Heh, I’m chuckling thinking of Reid being a part of the American Right. I think you’d have to be so far to the Left as to be a Marxist to think Reid is a part of the American Right.

I always knew that PhotoDude was a closet talk radio fan. Perhaps he has been “Hannitized?”

Federico, I’m glad to see you’ve continued visiting on occasion, but when you say … “I’ve kept reading your postings with great interest, particularly because it helps me understand the rationale of the political right in the US” ... as Paul points out, you’re not quite placing me accurately within the American political spectrum, if that’s what you meant by that.

To speak in broad sweeping generalizations, I’m a centrist. I did not vote for Bush, as those on the political right did. And I did not vote for Kerry, as those on the political left did. In addition, I’ve spent much of the past year criticizing Bush administration actions on a range of areas. You know, like you suggested Americans should do in your comment.

I’ll try to take your comments in “the best possible light,” but they don’t seem to be about Holland (a country for which I can so far find no history of acts of terror or attacks as you claim all have suffered, only a history of tolerance and neutrality). Not a word. Your comment rather seems to be about my sweeping generalizations, my patronizing position, and even mocks the qualifying words I put in to keep from say all Europeans.

You then go on to talk about “public opinion around the world is opposed to the intervention of the US in the Middle East” ... sigh. Write about the reaction in the Netherlands to a terrorist act in response to a Dutch movie, and it somehow always comes back to “the world hates the US.”

So I’m a contintental bigot with a patronizing attitude. Goodness knows we haven’t ever heard that kind of attitude towards Americans (sweeping generalizations, patronizing attitudes, and all that) from any individuals who might happen to live on the continent some call Europe.

OK, fine. I’ll stipulate all that, my clear bigotry, the obvious hatred of our country that permeates every breath taken on this planet, all of the things that I will never convince you of otherwise after reading this site for, what, years now? ... just so we can move along and I can ask you…

What do you think about the reaction of the people who live in the Netherlands to the murder of Theo van Gogh, the subject of this article? Do you find the level of violence in reaction to this murder notable, as this cloistered American does, or can you assure me this kind of thing happens there all the time? If you can look past the crude mud with which I tried to communicate my primitive and bigoted thoughts, please provide us with the introspection and world view you find that I lack on this topic.

And EduDude, you said “When the Muslim community is silent on the behavior of extremism,” but the quoted article states “Although mainstream Muslim groups condemned the killing, it has caused an outpouring of anger in the Netherlands.” There are times you can condemn loudly, and not be heard over other noise. Especially when your plea is dependent on the media.

Actually I am talking about here at home. While I am no expert, I read plenty. And the Muslim community is quiet. The media in Atlanta would be all over a story of a cleric from a local mosque calling a news conference and condeming terrorism. The problem is that the people defending and defining Islam are not Muslims. They are reporters, politicians and talking heads. Any group that is having its name hijacked by either an outside entity or a radical element within and then stands silent on the issue is sending all of the wrong siganls. While I respect that some fights are best left “in house,” this is a disagreement that should have a very public element. Further, this kind of hatred is being taught in an almost official capacity in some countries. At some point you have say loudly and repeatedly “they are not us – we are not them.” Let those who practice Islam educate the public about what Islam means. Otherwise the inevitable lack of information will lead to what it always does – hate.

I did finally find this list of terror acts in the Netherlands, a string of them in the mid 70’s:
– 1976 December 4 In the Netherlands, members of the RMS movement occupy the Indonesian diplomatic consulate in The Hague. One Indonesian official was killed.
– 1976 December 14 In the Netherlands, near Beilen, a passenger train was hijacked by members of the RMS movement, passengers were kept hostage. Three passengers were killed by the hijackers.
– 1977 May 23 In the Netherlands, RMS activists kept 105 children and 5 teachers hostage in a school in Smilde.
– 1977 June 11 In the Netherlands, near Groningen, a passenger train was hijacked by members of the RMS, 55 passengers were kept hostage. In an army attack six hijackers and two passengers were killed.
– 1978 March In the Netherlands members of the RMS movement occupy a provincial office in Assen. 67 persons were kept hostage, one official was killed on the spot, another died of injuries a month later.

Oh, those wacky Dutch, like NATO’s secretary general Jaap de Hoop Scheffer :
—Q—
The head of NATO said today that there was a critical “perception gap” between Europe and the United States on the subject of global terror and that Europeans must move closer to the American view of the seriousness of the threat.

“Your country focused very much on the fight against terror while in Europe we focused to a lesser extent on the consequences for the world,” Jaap de Hoop Scheffer, NATO’s secretary general, said in an interview. “We looked at it from different angles, and that for me is one of the reasons you saw such frictions in the trans-Atlantic relationship.”

“If the gap is to be bridged, it has to be done from the European side and not from the United States,” he said, adding that the conflict in Iraq, the issue that helped divide the alliance, now provided an opportunity for uniting it.
—Q—
Gosh, he’s speaking in sweeping generalizations, isn’t he?

No, my comments are not on Holland, but on the broader context of Europe. Your commentaries are not only on the events in Holland but on how they reflect on the different views on terrorism in Europe and the US, and that is what my comment is about.

Also, my criticism is towards your comments, not your character. And I certainly did not intend to make them a reflection on your nationality.

Some of the reactions to van Gogh’s murder are truly sad. But what is even more sad is that racism is not new to Europe, and it is certainly not restricted to the Netherlands. From Spain to Germany, hatred towards people of middle eastern and north african descent (only to mention the worst cases) is more widespread than what the newspapers in the US would suggest and than what most Europeans would admit. Van Gogh’s murder just gave way to the worst characters (curiously, they are never labeled as terrorists) to demonstrate their hatred. What you suggest is that a 9/11 in Holland would have magnified these demonstrations. That is a harsh statement, and I wonder what did you base it on.

I don’t quite follow the connection between the words of NATO’s secretary general and your generalizations about European opinions on the US. But, what I found interesting, is the characterization of the NYT of the secretary general as “a former Dutch foreign minister who backed the Bush administration on the war in Iraq.” If you are looking for European voices supporting Bush’s approach to terrorism, there are plenty to choose from, like prime minister Berlusconi, or probably those “vandals” in Amsterdam.

P.S. If Kerry is the political left, then watch out for those neighbors north of the border. With their socialized healthcare they are virtually communists.

“What you suggest is that a 9/11 in Holland would have magnified these demonstrations. That is a harsh statement, and I wonder what did you base it on.”

I don’t know, perhaps the fact that no one set off a bomb at an elementary school or left a pig’s head at the door of a mosque … even after the murder of 3,000. Yet these things happened in Holland within 48 hours. You say yourself that racism against Muslims is “more widespread than what the newspapers in the US would suggest and than what most Europeans would admit.”

Certainly appears more widespread than it has here. I was merely commenting on its sudden physical appearance in a country long known for great tolerance.

And you find the fact I find that notable … to be “harsh”? It seems a straightforward observation to me.

When I wrote this piece, I carefully tried to craft what I said to make it clear I was speaking about “some” Europeans who “might” feel this way, as you might speak of how “some” Americans “might” have voted out of fear on Nov. 3. Yet you took those very qualifying words with great umbrage, leaving me at a loss to continue.

I suppose it has become impossible for one/some/all/any Americans to talk about one/some/all/any Europeans. It’s all just sweeping generalizations once you drop the word “European.”

OK, would you prefer we Americans not talk about you at all? Because I’m about to that point.

I can intentionally write very insulting slurs about the people of a whole continent. That’s not what’s on this page, in intent or actuality.

I wrote asking some questions, and wondering, attempting to parse my words carefully. Look what it got me.

Would you prefer that I stop writing about Europe? Thinking about Europe? Would you prefer that we Americans just became isolationists and stopped thinking about you at all?

And not that you have any control over a soul other than yourself, but when will we Americans stop being spoken of in broad carictures and sweeping generalizations as well?

Perhaps we should both get used to it.

“If Kerry is the political left, then watch out for those neighbors north of the border.”

Now I see. We will never be “left” enough for you here in the US, none of us. We’re all the political right in your eyes, from Kerry to me to Bush. You have to go to Canada to find a real leftie.

Your understanding of American politics and our political spectrum obviously greatly exceeds mine, despite the fact I’ve likely been voting in this country longer than you’ve been alive. I bow before your superior understanding of not only our country, but all countries. I will try to stop having opinions about areas more than a few feet away from me.

Because, frankly, that’s the only response your presented argument appears to allow.

If we could get past that, you and I might talk about the reasons for the differences in reactions. We could talk about how after 9/11 one/most/some/all Americans felt like the threat came from “out there,” whereas in the Netherlands, one/most/some/all Dutch may have viewed the threat as living down the street … and that might have a real impact on their reaction.

But we can’t talk about that, because we can’t get past the semantics of “one/most/some/all”.