PhotoDude.com

In his neverending search for southern stereotypes, I'd also like to invite Howard to walk into just about any roadhouse country bar in upstate NY. Although, I'm probably stereotyping a stereotype here.

You people in the south need to get over yourselves as a some kind of "class of victims." Are you denying there are southerners who vote based on race, own guns, drive pickup trucks, and want the Ten Commandments in every courtroom? You don't have to talk to a bigot to discover these things, just pick up a newspaper. Dean isn't saying anything new.

"Are you denying there are blacks who are on welfare, who eat watermelon and fried chicken, and rape white women? You don't have to talk to a bigot to discover these things, just pick up a newspaper." Facts about individual people are one thing (Charles Manson was a hippie, and a murderer), but when you extrapolate from that to speak about an entire group of people (all hippies are murderers), even in a soundbyte-rhetorical-shorthand manner, you are exhibiting a logic fault, perpetuating ugly stereotypes, and engaging in potentially offensive language. Clumsy, to be very forgiving. Condescending, to describe the impact it had on me. Am I particularly sensitive to this issue? Sure. It comes from a lifetime of, on one hand, being a part of the beginning of school integration in the South in 7th grade, growing up in the 70's in the South and not seeing a prominent display of the Confederate Flag except at Gettysburg (up North, dontcha know), and decades of working well with African Americans that had either hired me or I'd hired them ... and on the other hand, decades of stereotyped shorthand about the South, the land of lynchings, bigoted inbred hillbillies, Hee Haw, the Dukes of Hazzard, and gun-totin' snake-handlin' pickup-truck-drivin' Confederate flag wavers. So Dean's words are nothing new to me, nor are they a particularly virulent form of the usual Southern stereotyping. Like I said, he uses the keywords that perpetuate the stereotype. But even that mild form is equally out of touch with reality. I live in a populous county that is 40% African American, nearly 10% Hispanic, with a significant percentage of Asians as well. It represents a population far more diverse than that of Vermont. If Dean wants to appeal to the "pickup truck drivers with Confederate flags" demographic, he won't get more than a single digit percentage out of it, while simultaneously creating a negative impression in the vast majority who do not fit the labels he is using. It was typified in the way the firestorm started in the debate Tuesday night. A young black man said he, too, was offended by Dean's statement, and wanted to know how Dean was going to reassure black people who were also offended by it. Dean then went on to talk about poor white people, and how we must "reach out" to them. He wasn't listening to the question. His campaign had to know the Confederate flag issue would be raised in the debate, so he had a prepared response. The one Dean gave when the subject was brought up. Unfortunately, it did not address the thrust of the young man's question, so it merely further highlighted the disconnect. Dean's "clumsy" choice of words had offended people like the young man who asked the question, and Southerners like me who view such shorthand statements as proof "you don't know me." Yet he stubbornly refused to apologize during the debate, when it would have done him the most good. And now, even after his apology, he's back in the hole with that damn shovel again, slinging shorthand stereotypes. I give the man credit for sticking to his message. However, I personally don't find it to be a very winning strategy. But then, judging by your comment, it ain't no big thang if'n sum inbred hick like me hollers like a hit hound. Probably cain't even make his mark to vote.

I remember when George Bush Sr.went into a grocery store, to mingle with the common folk. He didn’t know the price of milk and he was amazed by those UPC label scanners – he’d never seen one of those before. Dean’s handlers may have kept him from making similar elitist gaffe, but they can’t jump in front of him and stop him from making boneheaded comments like this. George Sr.’s trip to the grocery store revealed a lot about him and his supporters. So do Dean’s comments.

I don't think you get a lot of votes by insulting the voters. I also think that any American is entitled to vote based on any criteria they desire. I'm voting on behalf of me, not "the homeless", "the children", or any such malarkey. If Howard Dean doesn't understand that fundamental, he is not qualified to be President.

I think the problem is that the "South" is a lump, when it really shouldn't be. Being a "Southerner" in North Carolina is worlds apart from being one in Mississippi. Having lived in both Carolinas and Mississippi while growing up as a military brat, I can tell you that the difference is palpable. In Mississippi, particularly Vicksburg where I graduated from high school, the Confederacy is still very much alive, and a full 75% of the pickup trucks had gun racks AND Confederate flags in them. I saw more Stars n' Bars than I did Old Glory. The same was true when I travelled in Arkansas, Northern Florida and Alabama as well. The stereotype is unfortunately based on truth, and unfortunately the New South is still lumped in with the Old South. It's unfair, but unless folks address it and show there are real differences between the Old and New Souths, the stereotypes aren't going anywhere.

"...the difference is palpable..." It is, just as the difference can be between people from Connecticut, Vermont, and Maine, and therefore it's dangerous to make broad statements about "New Englanders." Not that anyone would be that foolish. Most of my later formative years (junior high, high school, and college) were spent in North Carolina, and that's where those recollections come from. However, I've also lived in relatively rural Tennessee (Cookeville), and areas of Georgia far less "urban" than Atlanta (LaGrange, and Warner Robins), plus my parents have lived in Mississippi for over 25 years. The variance in people is wide, as you state. Conversely, I spent my early formative years (first through seventh grade) in Oakland, New Jersey (Bergen County, an NYC "bedroom community"), St. Johnsbury, Vermont, and in the more "rural" locale of Clinton, New Jersey (well, it was 35 years ago). Again, the variance in people was wide. And since then, we've become such a "migrant society." Southerners move west, Northerners move south, and immigrants flock to this land from all over. There's a running joke in this town about how few native Atlantans there are. Everybody is originally from somewhere else. But we get the "lump" treatment still. It's simplistic.

I’m a liberal college-educated male living in Raleigh, NC. I think I know exactly where Photodude is coming from; I know the feeling of getting my hackles raised when somebody throws around the Bubba stereotype too freely. (It really used to piss me off when applied to Bill Clinton. Say what you want about Clinton, a dumb redneck he is NOT.) But this Dean brouhaha is a little mystifying to me. PhotoDude, I just don’t think Howard Dean was talking to you. With his Internet presence, Dean is doing well with folks like you and me: the yuppies and migrants in Atlanta and Austin and Charlotte. Now he’s trying to make inroads with rural blue-collar voters. I say more power to him. Now, arguably he needs to improve his rhetoric. But I don’t categorically object to his using metaphors or cultural shorthand. I see a lot of pick-up trucks around Raleigh; I don’t think all those drivers are hardened Republicans. I see a fair number of rebel-flag stickers. You don’t have to go to a KKK meeting to get one, you can buy one at a convenience store. Not all those people are irredeemable bigots – hell, not everybody who displays the rebel flag is in the South. I hate to think the Democrats can’t compete for those people’s votes. PhotoDude, thanks for the posts – I’m seriously examining my support for Dean & I’ve benefited from reading your perspective. But I hope you’ll step back and ponder whether you’re being too hard on Dean. How WOULD you suggest a Democratic candidate from the North campaign in the South? Or do you insist on Clark or Edwards as your candidate? Or should the Dems just write off the whole region?

I meant to post a link to another's blogger's take on Howard Dean (and Zell Miller piling on HD): http://www.thepoorman.net/archives/002172.html#002172

Ah, the phrase "Dix Hill" brings back memories, as in, "keep up that craziness and your daddy's gonna put you in Dix Hill." You see, I was born in Raleigh, and when we later moved back there, I went to Carroll Junior High (which was part of a very peaceful court ordered desegregation plan in 1970-71), and Sanderson High School. But that was oh-so-very long ago. "PhotoDude, I just don’t think Howard Dean was talking to you." But, but ... nobody told me not to tune in to the debate Tuesday night! I know, it was clearly aimed at those under 30. So call me a debate crasher. Nonetheless, I couldn't help but watch and be swayed by the manner in which Dean handled this subject. When he mis-answered the young African American's question about the concerns of blacks by talking about poor white people, I got the same "cringe" reaction I did in the fall of 2001 when Bush let loose with the word "crusade." Yipes. In both cases, I wasn't the potentially offended party. But that doesn't mean I can't view the tone deaf nature of the exchange as one of many points of judgment. I know what you're saying, though. And I do applaud the message that the Democratic candidates need to reach out to all points of the spectrum. However, you've got to find a way to appeal to the Hatfields without pissing off the McCoys. Yes, it's hard. But if you can't handle walking this minor verbal minefield, how will you fare in the verbal minefield known as the "Israeli-Palestinian problem"? "How WOULD you suggest a Democratic candidate from the North campaign in the South? Or do you insist on Clark or Edwards as your candidate? Or should the Dems just write off the whole region?" First, I've made my position pretty clear: "...at this stage in this race, I want someone to earn my vote." I've currently got no horse in this race. I'm on the fence, observing. I've got a few months left before I have to walk into a booth. So much can happen in a few months of a heated political campaign. Some of my current options may be removed before primary day in Georgia. As for how Democrats should campaign in the South, how about "on the relevant issues"? A lot of blue collar manufacturing jobs have disappeared from the South on Bush's watch. The military, which has many many bases in the South, and many many Southern members, is both underpaid and undermanned, again, on Bush's watch. The South is filled with ports which have pitiful security from terrorist acts, partially due to unkept, or rather, unfunded promises by the Bush administration. The quality of schools and overall education in the South has lagged behind the rest of the country for decades. And while the average family in the South (and the rest of the US) will see about $700 of tax relief in 2004, the goverment will run up about $1500 woreth of debt on their behalf next year, debt their children will eventually have to pay off. That's just off the top of my head, for starters. Leverage issues for Southern swing voters. And I didn't once mention pickup trucks, flags, guns, God, gays, or religion.

I'm posting from about 1/2 mile away from Sanderson High School. I'm not a Raleigh native, but I've been living here, let's see, 14 years now. I used to live in Boylan Heights, near Dix Hill, and thought it sounded like a good handle (they're closing the mental hospital, by the way). I like your list of substantive issues. I figure that the GOP has dominated the South largely on cultural issues, and the Democrats should find a way to talk about some of that stuff. Dean was trying to find a way -- perhaps very clumsily. (I admit, I haven't seen video of the debate.) Something I just learned this afternoon was that Dean made the original comment about flags & pickups, in the process of defending his anti-gun-control position.

Just an observation. From the "There ain't no such thing as bad publicity" desk. Dean no longer appears to me as "part of the pack". Anyone else? Are his comments mistakes? Or pre-planned focus group filtered statements? Being "part of the pack" seems to shrivel all the other contenders when you stack them individually against Bush, at least in my personal opinion. Dean may well be trying to leave the pack in the dust, irregardless of the impact his words have with many voters. (People have short memories anyway). I don't have a "choice" yet, and if I had to pick one now, it wouldn't be Dean. Still, I'm guessing that for whatever reason, good or bad, stupid or calculated, he just put distance between himself and the other Democrats.

'Dude, you're acting like a kicked dog. Fact is, good ole smart ass white boys in your neck of the woods have been voting race, guns, and religiion for years now and there's no denying it. That's not to say they got a monopoly on the subject, hell we even got a few here in L.A. (not too many, granted, but enough to notice). Stop whinin' about it! Of course Dean's too damn yankee to say it right, hell he's a Vermont doctor fer chrissakes. What do you expect?

Sazbat. The first major Dean post on PD and it's about the flag flap. Well, not that I have much to add here, except to say if you don't like Dean's line of rhetoric here, go blame the DLC who hosted a recent politcal conference in Atlanta titled "Gods, Guns & Guts": http://www.ndol.org/ndol_ci.cfm?kaid=126&subid=189&contentid=252165 Who's Southern now baby?

"Stop whinin' about it! Of course Dean's too damn yankee to say it right, hell he's a Vermont doctor fer chrissakes. What do you expect?" Something a lot less condescending, from anyone who wants to get my vote. And whining is an American Tradition during election year. It is often the only way to get the candidates' attention. "Sazbat. The first major Dean post on PD and it’s about the flag flap." Sazbat? Google doesn't even know what that means. And Dr. Dean has moved beyond the flag flap (which I talked about days ago) to create a new flap: "race, guns, God and gays." The DLC conference you mention was about "how progressives can reach out to gun owners, people of faith, married couples with kids, and other voter categories where Republicans have forged significant advantages in the 2000 and 2002 elections." OK. That sounds measured and gives reasons. But Dean is saying "We have got to stop having our elections in the South based on race, guns, God and gays...." To me, that not only isn't reaching out on the issues of guns, religion, etc. that's saying "you people down South focus on that stuff too much, and you need to stop." I know, Dean and the DLC are not "of the same cloth." And some people have the bizarre idea this is Dean's genius move to drive a stake in the heart of the GOP's southern strategy. Huh? But it may just all be over mah poor little haid, bein' a dum' redneck an' all.

PhotoDude, your third comment here ("As for how Democrats should campaign in the South, how about 'on the relevant issues'?") made a lot of excellent points. But this state of affairs has been true for going on 40 years, where voters who might be susceptible to the Democrats on economic issues have instead sided with the Republicans on cultural grounds--cultural populism trumping economic populism. This happens all over the country, but it's pretty obvious that it's more common in the South. Dean's people are no doubt concerned that the points you make (and he might make) about the loss of manufacturing jobs in the South will be ignored if Bush runs a campaign based on homophobia and the Ten Commandments. I do wish Dean had used different language to make a valid point. But I also hope that everyone pretending to be so offended by his stereotyping will be equally outraged in the coming months when we will no doubt hear the Bushies attacking Vermonters as Ben&Jerrys-eating, Birkenstock-wearing '60s refugees. But I won't won't hold my breath.

It was late, I was tired, I meant shazbat. You know, the thing Mork used to say? And I don't want to hear one word about this tomorrow at the blog doo.

Lot of us Yankees REALLY don't like Dean either. Cripes, this guy forces a social worker into anyones home when they have a baby. I don't want that kind of control freak in the white house.He's ing to make it so everyone has medical insurance, sure he is. CLinton promised that too, just the candy they throw out at the parades for the kiddies.